Why wives say no to sex, and what a man can do about it.

June 23, 2012

in Better Sex in 2012, Sexuality

graphic generated by surveymonkey.comLast week we ran a facebook poll asking why women (and men) say no to sex. So far we’ve had 171 women answer (some only after my bride assured them it was anonymous!).

As with any web based survey I can’t claim the results are representative of the population as a whole, but I can tell you they fall in line with what we and others hear over and over from women. This won’t apply to all women, but if your bride has not suffered significant sexual abuse, is not inherently against sex, and is not just plain selfish, there’s a good chance this speaks for her fairly well. I’ve put the full responses, plus comments, at the end, after my thoughts.

  • Too tired: Two thirds of the women said they say no because they are too tired, and half said they say no because it’s late or they have to get up early. I know tired sounds like an excuse to men, but realise please sex takes more energy for women, especially if they want to climax. We can have a quickie, climax, roll over and be asleep all in ten minutes, but this just leaves a woman horny, frustrated, and unable to get to sleep. If she’s tired to start with, climax is going to be difficult at best, and maybe just not worth the effort. (Note 16% said they say no because “It would take way to much time and effort to climax.”) So, if you want more sex, your number one job is to find a way for your bride to get more rest and better sleep. Nothing else will have as much of an effect, and for most women nothing else can have an effect until the exhaustion issue is resolved.
  • Not connected: The next biggie, at 44%, was not having connected emotionally. Women need to be connected on a heart level to want and enjoy connecting physically. They can have sex without emotional connection, but they won’t want it, and probably won’t enjoy it. (BTW, an orgasm does not mean she enjoyed it – really). So, if you want more sex, your number two job is building your relationship. This does not mean being lovey-dovey an hour before you ask for sex! Work on the relationship 24/7, and she will be more open to sex in general.
  • Stress!: Thirty percent of women say no due to stress. Some women manage to get to the place where sex is a stress reliever, but this is not the norm. For most women stress kills both their sex drive and their ability to respond sexually. So, if you want more sex, your number three job is to be aware of your bride’s stress level and find ways to help her. This is neither an easy nor quick task, but you can do things to help her with stress.
  • He’s rude!: More than a quarter of women have said no because of recent rudeness on the part of their husband. So, if you want more sex, your number four job is to stop being rude. Again, this does not mean just the hours leading up to bed time, it means trying to never be rude, and admitting it and apologising when you are rude.
  • OUCH! One woman in five said they have said no because of physical pain. (This was the most surprising result to me, I’d have expected about half that rate.) There is no breakdown of the pain, although several women indicated period related pain in the comments. Husband being too rough was 3.5%, so most of this pain is something else. Learn to know when she is in pain, and find ways to help her reduce pain. You might also be able to have sex if you are willing to do something other than intercourse. Orgasm is a great pain-killer, and if she learns you can give her an orgasm without hurting her she may have a new motivation to say yes!
  • Wrong message: A little more than one woman in six says no because things are not okay in the relationship, and she knows her husband takes sex as proof everything is okay. This does NOT mean she is saying no because of the problems, but because she does not want to wrongly communicate the problems are resolved or are no big deal. If you will learn sex is not an indication everything is fine, and if you can communicate that understanding to her, she may well be more open to sex. She may be willing to set the problems aside and enjoy sex with you, if she knows you will still be willing to deal with the problems later.
  • I hate how I look!: Also at about one women in six is women so distressed by how they look they say no to sex. And, for each woman who says no, there are a couple more who say yes but struggle to enjoy because they feel self-conscious. This is a huge issue, and one you need to work on steadily if you want to help her feel better about her body.
  • It’s all he wants: While “I feel it’s all he wants me for” was fairly low, at 15%, it still means plenty of women feel this way. They may or may not be right, but it’s killing the couple’s sex life.
  • Ready fire aim: A lack of foreplay was a reason for refusing for one woman in eight. However, I suspect even more would say they don’t enjoy sex much due to a lack of foreplay. It’s nice this was fairly low, and it’s an easy thing to fix.
  • All the rest: The remaining ten answers were chosen by fewer than 10% of those answering.

WOMEN: Why do you say no to sex?

Too tried 66.7%
It’s late and/or getting up early in the morning 49.1%
We have not connected emotionally 44.4%
Stressed 29.8%
He’s been rude to me recently 29.2%
Physical pain 19.9%
He thinks it means everything is okay, and it’s not 17.5%
It would take way to much time and effort to climax 16.4%
I don’t like how I look 16.4%
I feel it’s all he wants me for 15.2%
There is never enough foreplay 12.3%
I’ve rarely or never climax 8.8%
Not enough privacy 8.8%
He does not turn me on 7.6%
He does not take care of me; when he’s done, he thinks it’s over 7.6%
He smells bad 7.0%
If I do, he “wins” 5.8%
He’s too rough 3.5%
He always wants to do things I don’t like 2.9%
I think sex is wrong or gross 1.8%
I just don’t love him any more 1.2%

Comments from the women:

  • I never say no. I have even told my husband that i’m up for it anytime he wants it. ;)
  • usually it’s just that one of us is not comfortable, physically, mentally, or just with the environment.
  • He lies to me. I can’t trust him.
  • Sometimes I just feel gross, like I’m not clean enough or whatnot.
  • “that” time of the month
  • young children :)
  • When I’m not feeling healthy
  • He has said no to me so many times, that I can barely be in the mood!
  • I don’t say no…..
  • I don’t say no but he usually doesn’t ask
  • If the marriage has no mental,emotional,spiritual conection. How can I respond sexually.
  • It doesn’t feel as good as it used to or hurts too much.
  • I have several chronic conditions that come with some complications that make sex uncomfortable.
  • Sex can be pleasurable, but I never (or rarely) have a desire for it. It’s just too much effort and not something I really crave.
  • He’s the one who says no.
  • He had prostrate cancer We rarely have it.
  • If I’m sick
  • The only time I will say no to sex is if I’m throwing up or menstruating. Otherwise, he’s the one that’s usually saying no.
  • He doesn’t seem interested.
  • pregnant/sick
  • He does not ask Porn issues and Masturbation
  • vertigo when I lay down causes nausea and panic, so I have to start the night semi sitting, my husband can tell I’m nauseated and feels bad about bringing it up.
  • Not enough time to relax, or anticipate previous to starting
  • We don’ t have time. Otherwise, we don’t say “no”
  • he only wants to do it in the morning, i am still half asleep
  • he appears soooo needy
  • Makes me feel vulnerable
  • Menstrual cycle
  • bitter from doing everything (housework, bills, lawn care…) with zero help from him

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88 comments
fidelity121
fidelity121

Being a woman, and wanting sex more frequently than my husband due to our pregnancy, I found this article somewhat amusing and incredible. We have sex every day, and I would love to increase that level most days. This isn't purely because of a Biblical mandate, although I certainly believe a woman should worship her husband as the next level down from God. It's rather because - my husband is hot, supportive, intelligent, in shape, and just the site of him makes me want to bend over and please and empower him; I normally feel this way, but with the pregnancy the intensity has reached outrageous proportions. I've definitely learned a person can be too selfish in the pursuit of sex; after waking up my husband at 1 AM he got rather upset for encroaching on his limited sleep time and indicated to never to do that again, no matter how horny I get. Must fit things in late at night and early in the morning; how's that for "too tired" for you :). Straight from the mouth of a working man.


I read this article kind of from the perspective of a wet dream, imagining that I were in a position to turn down sex and not the other way around. I was kind of incredulous about the excuses given at first, but, I think it makes sense - depending on the man. For me, it's easy to strongly desire submitting to my husband because has A.) never betrayed my trust with lies, insincerity, or infidelity (and never flirts with other women, like some men I've seen do) B.) never watched porn since we got married (which is very blatant infidelity) C.) kept himself within the bounds of normal shape-wise D.) encouraged me unconditionally and our children E.) never emotionally abused me or our children (and has always been very approving of whatever body image I'm at) and F.) worked very hard to provide for our family, even sometimes under great stress. When I felt I couldn't balance work and home, he allowed me to stay with our son without much complaint, though he could have easily given me a hard time about it, or held me in contempt for not pulling my weight financially. Though he would have had every right to take advantage of power imbalance, he never did. In short, he has done nothing to block the sentiment that I strongly feel most women are pre-programmed with: the desire to worship, empower, and submit totally to their husband. Outside of the raising of our children, my top goal is to shower him with gratitude, and to be continually, enthusiastically attentive to all of his needs; for me, sex is the ultimate way to say to one's husband "I appreciate you, I worship you, I bow to your authority on every spiritual level." I would posit that every truly good man who has selected a mate wisely, should easily be able to consistently elicit the same response from his wife. Probably not if she is waking up every 2 hours to breastfeed, or if she is medically, thoroughly ill, but, sans that.


So, the question naturally becomes what men deplore to hear - "what is wrong with you?" I can honestly say, I'm not really a feminist, but if I were a man in that situation - I'd probably be thinking just that. Admit it, that's probably why this bothers you so much to begin with - because witholding sex is often a means of rejection. So what valid reasons does a wife have for rejecting her husband? A couple of thoughts come to mind: have you violated the sacred trust and power which she has placed at your feet? Are you one of those guys who has to stare at every pair of passing breasts, compliment women - even with your wife present - or watch porn like it's your job to make your wife feel inadequate and incapable? Are you openly and constantly comparing her body with that of other women, holding aging and medically acceptable weight gain against her; are you one of those people who has to let your wife know how ugly she is to you, or how much you want her to change - but then expect her to somehow have the confidence to bare her soul to you during sex? Do you threaten to cheat on her, or leave her - do you take away her feeling of safety? Do you beat her, ignore her, ignore her children, mistreat her/your children? Do you force her to work a hard job, and then to do all the housework too, but then hold her being tired against her? Do you reject her compliments, advances, tokens of affection - is sarcasm the way you show her you're a man? Are you consistently rude and ungrateful in your home life? In short, I guess, all of the above could be paraphrased to "are you not representing God to her at all"? If this is you, why should you be worshiped - how can she respect you as a leader? Sure, I have no place telling you this as a woman but - I have no idea why a man would consciously choose to be less than his potential; every great man (and woman) is constantly self-examining themselves to try to be the "best they can be" for God, and for their family; are you? Only you can answer that. 


Then again, there are also a slew of poorly bred or incapable women out there. But, I strongly believe there's no way she could have "fooled" you at the beginning of your marriage, and morphed into something else. A lot of men will put up with a bad attitude because the woman looks great at first; they reap what they sow - if all they care about is appearance, they'll wind up with nothing in time; and if you think lack of sex is bad, imagine what it will be like when you're 80 and need someone to do your laundry then, or nurse you back to health from surgery. No self-centered beauty is going to do that for you, though I'm not trying to imply beautiful women are inherently more self-centered -simply that, if that's all you noticed at first, why even be surprised later? On the other hand, she may be incapable of desire as well - either due to a hormonal imbalance or perhaps from starving herself; if you're the kind of man who needs her to look a certain way (many men like the waif image) - you might be shooting yourself in the foot - a woman who employs extreme measures to secure that image for you may have to fight against lowered libido and work twice as hard to be as engaged as a woman who, say, is not under such stringent requirements.


I used to think, for a very long time, that there were many good men out there just suffering needlessly under the persecution of selfish, ungrateful women, who obstinately and cruelly withheld submission from their husbands. For a time I thought - a husband is probably fully justified to force his wife into submission in such a situation, like beating a spoilt child. However, the more I became familiar with other women, and with the behavior of "typical" men, the more I realized - these women are actually suffering; they're no different from the most devoted wives - they have all the capacity and desire - it's their husbands who have told them in so many ways "no"; I feel sorry for the husbands too - clearly, they don't see the consequence of their actions. But really, if a project goes bad - who do you hold accountable for it - the management or the employee? You hold the management, because the management has the power. In all Christian relationships, the man has the power. 


I love that my husband has power over me. Never in a million years would I shrink from the opportunity to worship the ground he walks on.







Deposed
Deposed

Isaac you are likely another victim of the feminist directive.  The church is unwilling to teach some offensive to the world sections from the Bible in order to tickle the ears of women.  They call husbands to headship while making the true emphasis of the epistles of wife's submission of none effect.  Women are considered to the spiritual gender because they eat up the twisting of Scripture and the Jesus is my girlfriend motif.  Ever since Augustine became celibate to avoid sexual temptation instead of obeying scripture to marry instead of burning the church has denigrated the sexuality of males; instead venerating the virgin,  (woman) worshiping the female and neutering men in front of thier wives with messages of male submission.  Movies like Fireproof that remove moral agency from women and make men subject to the feelings of thier wives is the ubiquitous message of the church. 


It is time for a new man up message, but not really a new but the old Biblical one.  Husbands rule your households well, with your wife in subjection to the authority of Christ in you. Man up and tell her according to Peter and Paul that refusal or holding back sexually to her husband is an act of cosmic defiance and demonic reordering of God's revealed will.  She should be taught that marriage is the rightful context for sex, not love or feelings.  (By feelings the church, Hollywood and culture means her feelings, not your feeling of desire, your feelings don't count after all according to the feminist directive. )  


Sir I mean no offense to you personally, only God's best for you, but stop trying to buy your wife's affection.  It makes her a prostitute and you a slave to her feelings.  Instead lead her according to the Word of God.  You must become not just in rank, but in practice the commander of your home, not for narricistic motives, but to honor God and sanctify your wife.  Yes she is not more holy due to her gender, but weaker. Remember Adam was condemned for giving in to please his wife when God had instructed him differently.  God held Adam culpable for not correcting Eve.  Likewise if you continue to give in and subordinate your authority to her feelings, God will hold you culpable because you were instructed differently.   If she continues to regulate sex take her to the elders, if they are white knight manginas who reflexively protect the wife and blame the man, stand up to them and call them to repentance according to the Bible.  In other words - learn the Word and play the man, trust in Christ and by faith apprehend that even this is designed for your ultimate good.  

IsaacHolden
IsaacHolden

Every article about why women don't want sex is all about what the husband is doing wrong. What crap. I work 9 hrs a day, i do the handoff to and from the nanny and care for the kids the extra two hoits until she gets home. I do the garbage, lawn care, my share of the cleaning, laundry, and dishes. I work out twice a week and am in the best shape of my life at 37. I want sex and I am doing everything right and still not getting it. My wife is too busy and she comes home cranky and tired and frigid as an ice cube. She needs to get her act together or I'm outta here. I'm a great dad and a good man and I know for a fact that I deserve better.

Longinghubby
Longinghubby

I don't want to belittle anyone but most these reasons are crap.

Too tired: Myself included it will literally take less then 10mins. Suck it up not just for your husband but yourself. There's a good chance you will enjoy it and the more you do it the better it gets normally.

To late got to get up early: That's crap refer to "Too tired". 10 mins won't make or break your morning and will likely make you sleep better.

No emotional connection: sex is filled with emotion, hormones, endorphins... I believe the physical will lead to emotional. That's why there's love at first sight. "Man I'd love to bang that hottie" bad example but point made. Build emotion on the physical.

Stressed: Sex relieves stress. Scientific fact. Unless there's like a abuse history or something. By the by. I am not a doctor or anything.

He's been rude RECENTLY: Really are you five. Get over it. If not then own him. Call him into the bedroom lock the door tell him to get to licking. Make him pay a lil. But not to much. I he likes it to much he'll be rude all the time.

Pain: Pending physical issue, and not to be rude, things stretch some and get better. Remember your first time.

He thinks everything is ok: Well then talk to him tell him it's not. Resolve the issue and get to humping. You can't be angry for ever. Sex does help some issues. If the issues are that bad get counseling.

Take to long to climax: Another fact... In general the more you has sex the easier it is to get there for women. For men it's the other way. More sex more stamina. If nothing else teach your man how to get you there. If you teach him you will come. Field of dreams reference, boom.

I don't like how I look: My experience says I don't like how I look means I don't feel sexy. For starters if he wants sex from you it means you turn him on ie. he finds you sexy. Also sex is sexy, unless it's dirty and nasty. Then it's really sexy. More so, sex is exercise and fun sooo... It will burn calories, tighten things up, and if your man wanting doesn't make you feel good then I don't know what to say.

It's all he wants from me: Here's another bad analogy... Think of your body like a bacon dog treat. Just walking and strutting threw the house looking all tasty. Got the dog drooling like crazy. Got the dog going nuts humping pillows and stuff. Then it's bed time and you put the treat back in the drawer right next to where the dog sleeps. All night that dog is gonna dream about the bacon treat and how great it would to just lick it till there's no flavor left in it. See what I do there. ;)

So long story short. At some point you fell in love with this man. Lusted over him. Thought of nothing else but getting home to him. Then marriage, bills, kids, and on and on more excuses. And that's what they are, excuses. Stop making excuses let him enjoy you an more so you enjoy him, sexually. Remember sex is FUN. Waxing an plucking body hair is not fun but you make time for that.

One last thing. Sex makes men feel like a man!! An awesome man!! So if he upset or mad or grumpy, whatever it will improve his mood. Therefore very likely improving how you feel and how the marine is going and it should make you feel good know that's because of you and what you did. Yet another scientific fact!!

john71
john71

Wife tells me, your never happy.

Deposed
Deposed

My apologies for the typos. Typing on a phone in the airport is harder than it looks, at least for me.

Deposed
Deposed

Interesting that a wife's choice to defraud her husband is re-framed to be something he did, failed to do or is.  Maybe instead of feeding her rebellion he ought to instead gently instruct her that she is breaking her covenant and sinning against her husband and God.  That way he would be sanctifying his wife by washing and watering her with the Word and living with her with knowlege; that is knowlege of the Word and of her ongoing rebellion. In this way he is performing as the head of her and as Christ's appointed in her life.

unhappy n love
unhappy n love

What can I say not even touching yes we are married shes even called me a chauvinist I spend everything  cook always washing dishes waiting on her Yet one mistake an shes all over me She claims I am not romantic enough we are both 65 and I have erectile problems but she is not even wanting to try

beedude
beedude

I have talked to my wife numerous times about my needs and wants, i usually wait 2 months before breaking my silence that it has been 2 months. She constantly tells me that shes sorry and will work on it and then we go right back to the beigining again. She is a teacher and coach and we have a 15 month old daughter and i understand the demand and stress she goes through on a daily basis so i cook i clean i take care of our daughter 80% of the time i am sweet and romantic send her flowers for no reason at all except just to tell her i love her. We only have sex when she wants it or allows it, every time i want sex its the same excuse tomorrow and tomorrow turns into tomorrow into not at all. She tells me shoe would like me to just take her but when i think about doing it i hear her say keywords like im tiered or i have a headache when she says those keywords i dont even try because those are the usual reasons most of the time. I am tiered of having the same conversation over and over and it not ending in results i hace suggested counceling but she thinks if we cant fix problems on our own then what are we doing together. Im starting to feel resentful and looking at the possibility to go out side of our marriage but i dont want to hurt her or set a bad example as a father to my daughter. What can i do please help.

feidlimid athol
feidlimid athol

ive read countless articles on this.  while i can respect the main reasons women have, i feel in my heart, at the same time some women are just completely selfish, spoiled and apathetic.  yes men are dogs, deal with it.  we  deal with menstruation and countless other female issues, some better than others.  i could go on all night.  bottom line is i am just plain hurt and often suicidal because i feel like my wife doesn't love me.  we have children and a home and a life.  ive tried counseling and stopped drinking, and done everything she's asked me to do.  it seems like in the past when i was misbehaving or being less understanding she was more interested in the challenge.  now that i put her needs first she walks all over me and uses her power.  well whatever.  just wanted to reach out, or jot down what might be my last words.  thanks for not trying for me honey.



Oifvet
Oifvet

Preveis to this I was going to porn, masturbation but I am trying slow, by tuching kissing but I want her to tell me or show me that she is interested in having sex, so frustrated I need to kissing touching

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@fidelity121 Thanks so much for your comments!

On the issue of being too tired for sex in the middle of the night, I suspect that has more to do with him being sexually satisfied than anything else. If you were having sex once a week, I bet he would be all about being woken for sex!

Your list of things your husband has done right for you is very instructive. He is a loving, caring husband, and that makes it easy for you to desire him sexually. These two things are connected.

Your list of things men can do to mess up sex with their wife is also excellent. Many of these can be subtle, and a man may dismiss them as unimportant. Doing a few of these regularly is a sure way to hurt a wife's interest in sex.

Deposed
Deposed

@fidelity121


So if a wife does not desire her husband it must be his fault?  And if she lacks desire she is permitted to defraud him?   


You say you are not a feminist,  but I do not think that word means what you think it means.

fidelity121
fidelity121

@IsaacHolden No good man would rip his children away from their mother unless she were doing something grievously wrong to them. As a corollary, no good woman would rip a man's children away from him unless  he were doing something grievously wrong to them. It's one thing to cast one's wife in a dishonorable light (even if it is a real depiction of her) - it's another to threaten to break up your children's chances of happiness. When you have a child, neither of you matter as much as the children; a truly generous and great man, would never have to be told that.

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@IsaacHolden Given that I am talking to men here, I figure telling them what they can do to change things is the best plan. When I write to women, I talk about what they can change. For example, two years ago I wrote a post on this blog to women - http://bit.ly/PhbUjc .

Your anger may or may not be justified, but it is not helping your situation. I doubt you are as near perfect as you think, just as your wife is not as near perfect as she thinks. You can each keep blaming the other, and end up divorced and then in new bad marriages, or you can both work on your own stuff.

john71
john71

So freaking true...I wish my wife would believe this. I just gave up trying to have sex with her..because when I do try and have sex with her she keeps telling me no. So I stopped trying.

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@john71 I think it is easy to mistake "I would also like _____" for "I am not happy with what we already do.

frustrated_dude
frustrated_dude

I agree we as men fall for the person we want them to be. When we say I do They have a subliminal list of I don'ts. Which we find out afterwards it is very misleading.and they have a reason for everything and it is always your fault no matter how great of a husband you are. I can't touch her without thinking that all I want is sex. I can buy her things and be the greatest husband ever, but if I attempt to get sex for that she says "I am not a prostitute just because you give money or buy me something doesnt mean I need to have sex with you". But in a sense that is what they make us believe when we are in a relationship... We have to buy them things or spend money on them for them to even think about sex...WTF!

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@Deposed I'm al about 1 Cor 7:5, but if a man makes it difficult for his wife to want or have sex he needs to understand and own that. Ignoring his sin is just as wrong as ignoring her sin.

AmyJoMiller
AmyJoMiller

@beedudeDoes she have any medical issues or take any medications that have sexual side effects?? 

SonaFalk
SonaFalk

I can answer this - she is still hurt from the past. Yes, you may be Bill Cosby now, but she errs on the side of caution due to what has happened and what may happen again. You aren't some pet project to her, and I pray you never told her that. Sex is a completely emotional vulnerable experience for us (perhaps if men carried a child for 9 months, they might be a bit more sympathetic), and if our men has emotionally hurt us in the past....it creates a hole. Trust and security are 2 conditions that must be met before (willing) sex can happen! Build trust and security, rather emotionally or physically!!!

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@feidlimid athol  You certainly have my prayers. Have you told her how deeply this hurts you? Not just said it, but helped her to understand it? I would suggest some joint counselling with this being one of the things discussed.

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@Oifvet It sounds to me like she is willing to be receptive, meaning if you ask she will say yes. Expecting her to ask you is a much bigger thing, and she may be unable to do that. Can you meet her half way?

fidelity121
fidelity121

@TheGenerousHusband @fidelity121 I grew from this mistake. I realized I'd gone for a man who, felt he was so great in and of himself, because of his ambition, and the state of success he had worked towards, that he no longer felt he needed to respect others. Certainly, any woman in his life was just free-loading off of his success. He could have so many women because of it, and this went to his head; he was incapable of commitment, and worse, had no basic empathy for others, or character. I decided right then and there that, from then on, character would be at the top of my list - character and fidelity. I really believe if the foundation is there, everything else lacking in a man can be built. That's what made me fall in love with my husband - he was a man of solid character; he had compassion and tenderness, not just for me, but for all life in general. He was poor, he was uneducated, he wasted his whole life in comics and gaming - but, I knew one thing right off the bat: here was a man who understood devotion, who I'd never have to wonder about, who actually only needed and wanted one woman - me - even in my worst state possible. I think when he met me I was a solid 20 lbs over what I am now, I'd dropped out of school, I had debt - I had nothing to offer him but myself. And it was enough for him. He treasured me like I was gold - even when I was nothing. 


When a woman feels real love, she becomes a powerhouse. She's free from her insecurities, and in her gratitude blooms real capacity for worship.  I know the way I helped my husband would never fly with fundamentalists like Deposed, and people of that ilk. Because I enrolled with my husband in engineering school, and I worked very very hard with him to compensate for all the lack of training he'd had in math; there was definitely tough love about the comics and the videogaming. And yes, I once even threw his laptop into the lake when I found out he'd not been studying. I realize that's not a woman's place - but, my husband wanted to succeed - and he had nobody to push him through. He needed focus, and that's what I provided. I truly feel a person can't be too married to their gender role - at some point - you are married to your actual spouse - and - at some point - you can't just be a cowering, weak female waiting for the man to find the right step; sometimes, to be a really strong female, you take his foot and you plant it there - not to be domineering, but to see him exalted in the end. My husband loves me for what I did for him, and when he graduated with a great GPA, the first in his family to go to college, I was so proud of him. When he got a NASA internship, my heart beamed. When he got hired full time at a Fortune 100 company, we were walking on air. I strongly believe I don't have the same fears as some women do - who marry men when they are already successful, or who are married by men when they are at their best. I already loved my husband at his worst; he already accepted me at mine. 
I do not regard myself as his equal; I came into this marriage, obviously, not being able to give him my first experience, which I squandered. He accepted me, and I did try to change not who he was - but his life circumstances. In an ideal universe, I would never have had to push him, or change him on any level. But we don't live in an ideal universe. I saw his life would be better not crushing his back in the factory system - and I knew to raise a family, especially on on income, a person needs to have a certain type of job to really make that work. Maybe that makes me a feminist, the dreaded "ill of society"; I was a woman engineer. I did work for a while, helping to pay off both my and my husband's college costs. I'm not ashamed of that. I don't think I took something away from my husband. Going to work was not some empowering thing. It was a thing done for the benefit of our family. 
I often wonder of this construct of ideal woman. It means so many things to different men. Submission too. Is it more honorable to watch your husband struggle on the sideline, honoring a social construct, or more honorable to step into the fight with him, and take some direct blows yourself? Is it more honorable to be silent, and let a man fall in his own vice, or, with gentleness and love, take his hand and pull out of the mire? Is passivity a virtue? What kind of mother would such a woman make? Can there be self-sacrifice without a self? 
I guess Deposed is right. I am a feminist. I am a feminist who cleans her husbands' clothes and house, cooks all his meals, washes his dishes, takes care of his kids, as frequent submissive sex with him, and lives dependent upon his income. But, I guess, for all the reasons mentioned above, I'm a feminist, in tow with all the loud talking, ball busting, "manly" alpha females. Quite a pickle.

fidelity121
fidelity121

@TheGenerousHusband @fidelity121 Sorry to be rambling but I wanted to add one last note. My list of negative attributes and possibly my rush to question the role of a man in his wife's sex drive comes mostly from my first experiences with a man. I thought, from the very vocal minority of men probably not unlike Deposed - that what a man truly wanted was submission from his mate, and to be honored, and accepted, and that if a woman but did these things, everything would fall into line. I actually found, the more submissive and tolerant of emotional abuse I was to him, the more it encouraged poor behavior. Towards the end, he became outright vicious - I strongly believe, simply because he felt he could - because my love was "guaranteed." I remember comments he used to make - specifically to wound like - "I ran in front of the tri delta sorority today without my shirt on - and they all hooted at me and stared me down - it was nice." "Why did you dye your hair blonde, just because I like blondes, that's pathetic, do you have no self esteem?" "You seriously saved up all semester just for a train ticket to come and see me? I just don't have the time"  - and then immediately afterwards he took a two week vacation to go on a trip to MIT with some of his friends. His phone rang while he was there and I could hear him flirting with some very self-confident girl on the other end. But all this was nothing compared to what he did at Thanksgiving. He came, and spent several hours with me looking over a wedding ring, had us pick it out together, took me to beach, told me this was the best time he'd had in his life, and that, surely it didn't matter if we consummated our marriage early. We would get married that December, so, why hold back from him, didn't I trust him? So, I did. I remember my mother warned me "this boy is shit - no man of worth talks about his mother that way" (his mother was a stay at home Mom, but also, I guess, had actually been a crack whore at some point - and, he told my Mom "she did nothing for me"); my Mom indicated that a man who does not even respect his own mother will surely not respect me but, I was in love and, silly parents, what did they know about this great man? My Mom cried when she found out that he had come to see me on Thanksgiving. She knew, I guess, what he was there for. I just remember her screaming over the phone "just don't sleep with him, don't sleep with him!" But I did. I had a whole meal prepared the next day, I wanted to give him a vision of how I would wait on him and treat him so well the rest of his life. He left and gradually, I heard less and less from him. The two weeks before Christmas, I heard absolutely nothing from him at all. I remember calling, just begging him to let me know if he were OK, if I had done something wrong, that if he were too scared about marriage right away, it was OK. Well he did call, Christmas Day. He told me he had met someone at the gym, told me she had firm size C breasts, and was 2 inches taller than me, and he was really sorry but, things had been developing and, he was going to be with her. How long had he known her? A month or so. I was having difficulty in school, probably because I was heavily distracted by this relationship, and, my life was too depressing for him to be associated with; he appreciated that I had been there when he was 50 lbs heavier and that girl wouldn't have looked twice at him but, that's an old him, and this is the new him so, that's that. I think that was the worst period in my life. But it was not over. Later, two months later, he called me up out of nowhere, saying, he'd made a terrible mistake, he was so sorry that he'd hurt me, he realized he wanted to be with me after all, and we'd get married, this time, right away, could I forgive him? And I thought, what does a good woman do - hold the faults of her man against him? Isn't a woman supposed to be characterized by grace and compassion and endless forgiveness? Isn't this the way to prove devotion - to even accept that a whore has entered the relationship, and to overlook it? He said he wanted to sleep with me, to be with me. I was wary though; I felt that, maybe he was just wanting ME to be the woman on the side. I knew his new girlfriend stalked my blog so I wrote what he said there. Sure enough, the next day, frantic calls from him "how could you write that?!" and, two weeks later, sobbing calls on my phone, that, could I just call his girlfriend, and tell her that I made it up out of spite. This was the LOVE of his LIFE, and even though he'd been terrible to me, could I just do this for him. Truthfully, by then, I was out of love for him. I know people like Deposed feel that, a woman's love should be endless, that she should somehow have grace irrespective of circumstance - but I'm sorry - you can kill love. You can torture a person until, every promise you make just is only a bitter slap, and even if they wanted to, they could never trust or love you again. Porn is one thing. Cheating on your significant other, is another. Really, I was not graceful in my act of calling this woman. People thought I had sunk to another level of self-debasement, but by then, I hated her to the point that, I wanted to curse her with a life with him. I knew he was not capable by then of fidelity. And since she was so comfortable in stepping into my life and taking away the thing that was most significant to me - I thought, I would return the favor, and help her bond with a man who is born to destroy women. I called her up and sang his praises, told her I was just some crazy bitch who was jealous and wrote all that just to hurt her, how he'd be good to her, how he was a fine man. She seemed so relieved. So I'm not a very good Christian, but who could have the strength to be honest in that situation? Bitter would not begin to describe the level of inhuman pain I was in. And to this day I don't understand how a man could be so heartless - and I truly believe some men - you can't please - you can't fulfill them - and the more you try, you only just hurt yourself. And I don't even believe that exercise is honorable to God. It's just a waste. It has taken years but I am thankful to some degree for what happened, simply in that I am not married to such a man, endlessly stuck in a cycle of pain.

fidelity121
fidelity121

@TheGenerousHusband @fidelity121 I do believe he is sexually satisfied. I am not going to test that theory by depriving him but, I asked him if it were getting too much and he said no, it's just right. Then he did say something that disturbed me a bit - "I need the exercise anyway." I  was a little bit mortified to hear sex and exercise equated, as, to me, exercise is just a necessary evil. He then indicated that sex isn't relaxing until the end for him - until then it's a lot of effort, but added that it's one he enjoys. I think I was just surprised that he appeared (to me) to enjoy my giving him a "back scratch / massage" more than the actual sex, I think that's where the effort comment came up. I believe this is why he enjoys blow jobs so much, but, at the moment vomiting during the day from morning sickness, I'm not able to fully engage him on that level; I would not want to test my gag reflex in this condition. So there are some things that I could probably do better with him. I know he also has the desire to hurt me during sex, something he's constantly conflicted about; I'd like to give him this desire but, my pain tolerance is ridiculously low. He feels guilty about this but, I can see how it factors into the domination fantasies, and, I do want him to feel powerful, but, the actual execution is a little more difficult (kind of like the drug free labor fantasy - sounds great until you're dying for a way out). Several years ago, he did actually hurt me during sex kind of badly, to the point where I was bleeding later and I freaked out because I thought I might never be able to go to the bathroom without pain again. I was obviously over reacting but I called him a monster, something he holds against me to this day. Clearly, I do not feel his needs are monstrous, but it just goes to show how one over-reaction can lead to damaged intimacy over the years. I do fear that he may be bored by the "lighter" version of dominance/submission we regularly practice, but, it would be worse to try to promise something that I cannot fully deliver on. Worse, he has indicated to me that he wants me to actually enjoy the pain, and he realizes that since I am pain-averse that is impossible, that I would be pretending, which kills the whole thing for him. He says there's a difference between me enjoying the pain itself and me wanting to please him, so, a difficult desire to fulfill. He's never pushed the issue though, it just remains there - as a stretch goal.


At any rate, my husband views sex as part of a whole range of shared activities in our marriage. Fortunately or unfortunately, it's not the end all be all for him. I once cooked him chicken makhani (which takes about 2 hours to prepare from scratch), and I think in some joke he was saying that if he had to pick between the two he'd pick the dinner because it shows how much I love him given the effort put into it. Sometimes, I feel like sex is actually the "easiest" way to worship a man; it's so much harder to raise his kids as a fully involved/attentive/attachment-parenting Mom, to keep a clean house, to have organic food prepared, to manage bills and, if a person has energy after all of that, to add to the family income. Sometimes I feel the myth of fulfilling a man purely sexually is kind of a female fantasy borne out of a lack of courage to fully embroil oneself in the less glamorous tasks that are so much harder to deliver on with grace. Regardless what many hard core fundamentalists may think, I still feel a measure of guilt over quitting my job to stay with my son - my husband could have had funds for his business ideas and a lab in the basement - I reject the hypothesis that a woman's income is usually selfishly spent. Still, my husband helps me with this indicating that our son is more important than these things; neither of us felt comfortable with day care. 


fidelity121
fidelity121

@Deposed @fidelity121 Deposed, judging by your commentary on previous posts, I'm not sure that we will ultimately see eye to eye on things, only in that, I try to not view the world in a rigid black/white structure, because I find it renders me lacking empathy. I know per your beliefs you have a black/white value system, but I will try to address your question, even though my beliefs are not quite as rigid.


That said, I don't think it is a given that if a wife doesn't desire her husband, it is his fault - but I do think, given our culture, that is a statistical probability; I've witnessed a lot of men behaving in ways that are (to me) deplorable, and I greatly pity the wives who must try to worship such men. In my opinion, if she lacks desire because he has basically slept with other women, whether in the flesh or in his mind, or divorced her in his soul, and actions - then I think she is permitted to defraud him as he defrauded her; I would view her "defrauding" (in my opinion), as less grievous then, say, a man who has first defrauded her by, I don't know, sleeping with his secretary, or gym companion, or whatnot. That's an extreme situation I think, but I've seen it happen. If she just lacks desire and the man is not at fault, of course her duty is to try to serve him. The sad reality is, very men aren't contented with this; my man wants me to show desire, and actively participate in sex. If I "wasn't into it" but still had sex, it would be quite valueless I think, even if Biblically speaking I were doing my duty or whatnot. 


My main point was that, I truly believe women are generally well inclined to desire their husbands, and I've seen many women hurt by men; I really haven't seen the opposite as much. That's just been my experience. 


I'm not afraid of labels so, if you want to label me a feminist and blame me for the ills of the world, go ahead; I rather consider myself a humanist, but, to each his own.

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@fidelity121 @IsaacHolden I agree with you on taking a child from their other parent. Sadly many do not see it that way. We are so about our own happiness we are willing to destroy our children in the name of our own interests. We do it both by divorce and by refusing to fully engage in our marriages. 

john71
john71

I have to be a SUPER SUPER good boy to get one of those lol

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@frustrated_dude I would say that is about her, not you. It is because of her fears and feelings. The challenge is figuring out what is eating her and getting her to deal with it.

Deposed
Deposed

@TheGenerousHusband @Deposed 1 Corinthians 7 provides only one normative exception for marital intimacy and desire is not that enumerated exception.  It is up to her to foster desire for her husband (he also for her); this was part of her covenant vow entering into the marriage.  Failure to perform this most pleasant duty is to turn your spouse over to the Adversary to be tempted.  This is to strip away his/her protection and blessed outlet for sex and oneness in marriage.  Further it strips a man of his sexual identity and man leaving him helpless against an usurpation of his Christ given duty of headship.  (When her feelings justify rebellion of his authority over her body, then in like manner her feelings can be used to justify her violating the submission ordinances in all other areas; turning Christ's law order for family roles upside down. ) Scriptures provide a linkage between burning in lust and sexual defrauding, they in no way provide justification or excuse to defraud because one's autonomous feelings are not placated sufficiently to kindle desire without effort.  1 Peter 3 allows no such room for her to rebel against his authority due to his harsh treatment.  (Peter does not condone harsh treament only that it is not cause to fully submit as to Christ.)  To assume the blame on the man is to provide cover and excuse for the woman and her continued rebellion and discontent.  


I am very much concerned that the evangelical community, while trying to strengthen families is in reality by their practice paving the way for more divorce and marital grief, simply because it continues to resist a most clear and forward reading of the Scriptures regarding marriage.  We can continue to deny that feminism has won in culture and our churches  decisively or we can repent and once again to commit to build our families on the pattern provided by the authority of the Word of God.  

feidlimid athol
feidlimid athol

Oh save your banality for someone who hasn't heard these rubbish excuses for over a decade. You birth children. Standing ovation okay. We deal with your insane hormone changes for longer than nine months. How about this: every time she was pregnant she would beg for sex towards the end because she believed it to help induce labor. How about, me staying home with my children more than her because she's this business professional that potentially earns more money?

I'm sure you say that I'm a loser for that and I probably don't get sex because I don't make enough money. Well real men raise their kids. Also, if your husband was choosing porn over you, as a man, I can assure you that you are not attractive to him. Women insecure over porn just have no self confidence. The females in porn are completely disgusting to any man who could otherwise have a decent woman. You are obviously a jilted woman and I should have specified that I don't need advice from someone like you. You use too many explanation points and you write like someone who didn't graduate middle school.

Be careful where you run your mouth on the internet. I was putting my heart out there and being honest. Always a bad idea these days because of trolls like you who just chime in without even contemplating how ignorant you sound.

I'm sure you have an amazing retort. Just save it. You'll be wasting more time than I just did writing this.

feidlimid athol
feidlimid athol

@TheGenerousHusband @feidlimid athol  


yes, sorry, i meant weve tried counseling.  she hated it and dropped out after maybe 6 sessions.  i continue to see the counselor who believes i should get out of here.  its hard to find reasons to stay when a professional that you trust is in agreement.  she knows it upsets me and i try so hard to not focus on sex, but it doesnt seem natural to suppress what is natural.  

SheamusDuffy
SheamusDuffy

@TheGenerousHusband @Oifvet Reading through these comments and replies leaves me with the sense that it is ultimately the man's fault if the marriage is without sex, and it is the man's responsibility to do something about it.  It seems there are a hundred reasons given for why women do not want sex, may not be capable of having sex, or shouldn't be expected to have it unless they want it.  I've been married for 17 years and could almost count the number of times my wife and I have made love--zero in the last two years.  It is driving me mad, and now I'm made to feel guilty because it's due to something I'm doing wrong or not doing right.  I don't mean to sound selfish, but I am just so frustrated.  I love my wife and want to hold her in my arms and make gentle love to her.  She knows I do because I've told her so.  I use terms of endearment with her everyday, but she never reciprocates.  Maybe the relationship is dead and I'm just not getting the message.

Deposed
Deposed


@fidelity121 @Deposed 


You do realize that humanism is in opposition to both the authority of God and Gospel don't you?  It is the desire to be as God, you know the temptation given to Eve by the cunning serpent.  It just sounds so good doesn't it?   Perhaps you should ask that hunk - a- burning love you married, he can no doubt wash and water you in the Word so that you are not blown astray by every wind of doctrine and help to root and ground you in the truth of God's revelation.  But you should know that most Bibles are black and white, you might be more comfortable in one of those red-letter editions ;-)

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@Deposed @TheGenerousHusband "It is up to her to foster desire for her husband" - Really? Then based on the Christ is to the chruch as husband is to wife it is up to us to foster desire for God!

"Pleasant duty" - what if it is not pleasant? What is he is making it unpleasant?

Are you suggesting a man cannot be a proper head if his wife is not providing sex?

As to authority over her body, the Bible gives her the exact same authority over his body.


I fully agree with you that there is no excuse for refusal, but if we ignore the bigger picture we are choosing to ignore other sins. 


As for your last paragraph, I address that in my June 29th post.

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@feidlimid athol @TheGenerousHusband  Have you made it painfully clear to her what is likely to happen if nothing changes? Have you said that for so long without doing it she no longer believes you? Or does the idea of being along bother less than the idea of having more sex?

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@SheamusDuffy @TheGenerousHusband @Oifvet If we want to place blame, I would blame society. Before you decide I am blaming the guys, please read my recent post The Sex Drive God Gave You http://bit.ly/1vdikV5

Because I am talking to men here, I usually give men ideas on how to bring about change. When I talk to women, I focus more on what they can do to bring about changes. 

fidelity121
fidelity121

@Deposed @fidelity121 Yes, I realize humanism was also a poor choice of words there; maybe humanitarian is what I meant. I'm not sure - I am a human who does view women as not meriting abuse. From your comments, it would appear that there is nothing a man can do that is sinful before God, even violating their marriage contracts. If that is your belief, far be it from me to encourage you differently; that's between you and your wife. 


I did actually ask my husband about this and he said, "I look at other people's marriages with fear, as examples I'd rather not land in. I think people should agree together before they get married on expectations, and both partners should conform to those expectations. If they both want to watch porn together, fine; if they view that as infidelity, then they should hold to that." So, straight from my hunk of burning love. Neither one of us imagine that we are so righteous as to earn salvation through rigid adherence to details, missing the larger picture "if a man has not love" nothing matters.


I'm not sure if you are referring to the Scarlet Letter; I'm gathering you are calling me a whore or whatnot. That's fine, to be your opinion; any woman passionately into her husband would be by your definition. 


One question I have for you is, how are you like Christ to your wife? 

Teraisa
Teraisa

Amazing reply! Men are the head; they need to respect their duties more so than wives-because their actions and inactions are teaching their wives.

Deposed
Deposed

@TheGenerousHusband @Deposed


Q:2.Are you suggesting a man cannot be a proper head if his wife is not providing sex?


If a wife is defrauding her husband she us already the head of the bed.  In most cases a husband desires to please his wife and that good desire can be a means of control.  No sex for you if you do not please me the way I insist is the unspoken threat and lever to usurp headship.  So I'd there is defrauding in bed, there is usually a challenge to the the head.  Most churches and ministries will rally behind a wide when a husband oppose a the coup with words like verbal / emotional abuse you poor dear ....


Some will automatically blame the man even while he is being defrauded.

Deposed
Deposed

@TheGenerousHusband @Deposed 


Q:1 <i>Then based on the Christ is to the chruch as husband is to wife it is up to us to foster desire for God!</I>

<p>

Yes, absolutely we are to stir up, kindle and increase our affections to the Lord.  The means of grace like: psalm singing, worsip, hymns, prayer, the Lord's supper, confession and devotional reading of God's Word all contribute to our fostering our desire for our Lord.  

<p>

In like manner a spouse is to stir up passion for their mate.  A wife who imitates Sarah who even calls her husband Lord;  she (or he as the case might be) has a duty to prepare them selves for the pure and undefiled celebration of oneness.  And like worship that is performed with the lips only and is distasteful to the Lord, so also a spouse that has sex with the hips only and their heart us far from their spouse is an offense to the other and to the Lord to whom they covenanted in marriage (remember the marriage vow is made to God).  There is no Biblical warrant or reason that would justify a spouses unwillingness to fully give themselves sexually, including preperation by stirring up desire, to their spouse.  


To automatically blame a husband for a wive's disengagement, parrticularly in a period of mass feminine rebellion, is similar to blaming Christ for the church of Laodicea ' s lukewarmness, and the church at Ephesus' lovelessness.  It is antithetical to scripture and utterly unfair to men and the Lord.  It further undercuts God's design for the family and further encourages mutiny in the home.

Deposed
Deposed

@TheGenerousHusband @SheamusDuffy @Oifvet


If you want place the blame...place the blame of defrauding on the partner defrauding. If you need other contributors,  look no further than churches and ministries that won't hold women accountable for their sins,  but rather tingle itching ears, looking to make the women happy. 

Deposed
Deposed

@fidelity121 @Deposed


I'm not calling you anything and I deplore Hawthorne.  I was making a snide comment in response to yours not seeing the world as black and white.  The Bible can be very black and white ethically speaking, the red-letter edition is an attempt by some publishers to draw attention to the words spoken by Jesus. 


Dr. John Frame stated it very well when he said Christian ethics is the application of God's Word to people in situations. 


Your assertion that men can do anything before God and not be sinful is false witness on your part and a slander.   I actually think men are held by God to account for their sins of omission (like not ruling his wife well) and commission like undo harshness to a wife who is not in submission.   Ommission like Not loving her by admonishment with the Word or allowing her feminist discontent and rebellion to grow unchecked.  Commission like  holding on to bitterness, abusive words that are nit intended to edify but cause pain and forsaking the wife of one's youth or skirt chasing etc.  All sin all bad, I'll thank you not to defame me with that slander again.


BTW- good job asking your husband, it showed fidelity to 1 Corinthians 24:35.  Just saying!

TheGenerousHusband
TheGenerousHusband moderator

@Deposed @TheGenerousHusband No, not at all. He is expected to be proper head even if she is not providing sex!


! Cor 7 is very clear, and I see no loop holes. Sexual refusal is sin, period.

fidelity121
fidelity121

@Deposed @fidelity121 Sorry, was not trying to put words in your mouth, only to see if you did have areas where you felt men should be accountable. Sorry for being presumptive on that. 


Thanks for clarifying about the red letter Bibles...I now realize what you were alluding to - we do have a version with the red lettering as well. I do value Jesus' commentary.


Thanks for the compliment about asking my husband; I always want to know what he thinks.

Deposed
Deposed

@TheGenerousHusband @Deposed


He is the head by God given authority, but his ability to function as the head is impaired by her rebellion and the empowerment from the church.  This is why I stated that if she is defrauding him, his course of action is to correct her from the Word of God and to act from his duty as head and sanctify her.  He should not seek to bribe her feelings, but love her according to scripture, exhorting her and even rebuking her if she continues in her sin.

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