Marriage Destroyer: Passivity

pas·sive adjective \ˈpa-siv\

—used to describe someone who allows things to happen or who accepts what other people do or decide without trying to change anything [Merriam-Webster Dictionary]

It seems increasingly common to hear a woman complain her husband is too passive. How they state it varies, but the complaint often matches the definition above.

Passivity can be going along to get along, or it can be fear based. Some men are so tired from “fighting” at work they have no desire to fight at home. Many have heard men are abusive, so they become passive to avoid being that guy. Some are so consumed by self-doubt they can’t step up.

Passive Man © Wavebreakmedia Ltd | Dreamstime.com

You might think a woman would love a passive husband. She’s free to be who she wants and do what she wants. A wife may feel this way at first, but she can’t respect a man who won’t stand up for himself or what’s right. Because she can’t love a man she doesn’t respect, she will grow cold and distant. She may ultimately leave or try to drive him away. If she remains married it will be in name only.

I’ve seen this up close several times. After two or three decades of being a “devoted husband,” the passive man finds his wife has neither love nor use for him. By the time he knows there’s almost no chance of fixing it, even if he does change.

Being passive is as bad for a marriage as is being demanding or too aggressive. The passive husband won’t hear complaints, but the damage is just as real and it can end a marriage.

If you think you’re passive:

  • Offer your opinion more often.
  • Stop saying, “whatever you want” as a reflex.
  • Learn to be okay with conflict.
  • Pray about what matters, what you should stand up for no matter the cost.
  • Be willing to fight for your marriage, even when it means opposing your wife.

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48 Comments on “Marriage Destroyer: Passivity

  1. Passivity and apathy are an issue. Men are meant to fight for what they believe in rather than give up. Marriage and our wives and families are always worth fighting for.

    Apathy often comes due to repeated failure, lack of recognition and reward, no sense of purpose and/or an emotional disconnect / rejection. I am sure there are other reasons but these are the ones I have mostly come across.

  2. Passivity and apathy are an issue. Men are meant to fight for what they believe in rather than give up. Marriage and our wives and families are always worth fighting for.

    Apathy often comes due to repeated failure, lack of recognition and reward, no sense of purpose and/or an emotional disconnect / rejection. I am sure there are other reasons but these are the ones I have mostly come across.

  3. By far the biggest reason is men being beat into passivity by their wives and the christian leaders who teach like you daily…sorry to be so blunt.  Take away Family Life Today, Focus on the Family, All the treed preachers and teachers, etc who have got to keep the women happy (for a few reasons…money, it’s their ego boost, and worst of all because it’s become their theology)  and you’d see things change.  Until then the risk is too great for 80% of men.  20% of men couldn’t be caged no matter the circumstances.  As always, part of the 80% don’t know this because they are married to angels.  So that takes the percentage down to maybe 50%.

    Yes, it’s a huge problem but spread the blame around beyond just the man, to those who are teaching this emmasculated man/husband teaching (uh..humm…).

  4. By far the biggest reason is men being beat into passivity by their wives and the christian leaders who teach like you daily…sorry to be so blunt.  Take away Family Life Today, Focus on the Family, All the treed preachers and teachers, etc who have got to keep the women happy (for a few reasons…money, it’s their ego boost, and worst of all because it’s become their theology)  and you’d see things change.  Until then the risk is too great for 80% of men.  20% of men couldn’t be caged no matter the circumstances.  As always, part of the 80% don’t know this because they are married to angels.  So that takes the percentage down to maybe 50%.

    Yes, it’s a huge problem but spread the blame around beyond just the man, to those who are teaching this emmasculated man/husband teaching (uh..humm…).

  5. High Country Well said. I am re-reading Wild at Heart by John Eldredge. Men have to be given reign to be the men God designed us to be. Rough around the edges. Rugged at heart. Hungry for a challenge. Different.

  6. UBAwesome High Country  
    Yes, most teachers in the church and in marriage have no idea how to handle men like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, Peter, Paul and Jesus (although on the later, they just ignore 50% of who He was).  In fact, if one of those men were to show up in our churches today my guess is they’d quickly try to change him and tell him how ungodly he was and you’d see your first church leadership decision to kick someone out of the church in decades as they booted these godly men out the door…for those churches who didn’t repent.  My fear is that most wouldn’t repent though, I’m fairly certain.

  7. UBAwesome I love the approach of John Eldredge (just mentioned him in
    another comment). One problem he confronts is “taking it to the
    woman” – looking for women to validate our masculinity. If we need a woman
    to validate it, we don’t have it!

    @High Country The problem is not what women have done, it is
    what men have done and failed to do. That does not mean women are without
    wrongs, they certainly have done plenty wrong. But if we look to blame them we
    surrender our power to do much to change things. I do not need to be told how
    horrible women are to become a real man!
    Creating a common enemy is a tried and true way of winning
    the hearts and minds of a group. It works to get them all to follow you, but it
    is not the best approach to positive change, and it certainly is not the
    biblical approach. I do not need someone to make me feel better by telling me how
    horrible women are. I need someone to help me see where I have failed so I can
    make changes.

  8. TheGenerousHusband UBAwesome  

    And that is why I include you in the teachers Paul.  You don’t hold women responsible for what women do.  And yes, when you have teachers, the church, and the laws written so women hold the power…sorry you are flatly wrong.

    I’m a 6’2″ 270lb muscled letter athlete in high school, also voted most likely to suceed in high school and college.  I went to bible college, ministered full time, led many to Christ.  I own & run a million dollar company that I started with less than 3k.  I also run a ranch, am my own mechanic, plumber, electrician, carpenter.  I’m tough as nails and even if I run up against the 1% of men I can’t whip due to their special forces training I carry a pistol everywhere even to church (legally, for all those NSA agents reading).  I’m a man’s man in every sense and yet I very much faced this struggle and battled it for years.  Maybe I wasn’t “man enough” and yet I did everything you would have told me to do…what you teach is a lie in this instance.  I know millions of men have found the same thing by re-reading the scripture and seeing what true men are about. and telling the teachers where they can stick it and even their wives if they wan to behave as many do.  Yes, you risk your marriage (which includes your children, 1/2 or more of everything you own and your salary), your fellowship with believers and even your freedom, but hey- who said following Christ was going to be easy.

    You are clueless and blind to this and don’t know how else to tell you.  You and your wife have done a lot of good for the Kingdom but this one subject you teach pure poison on and I don’t know how else to say it.  You are right in saying you don’t need a female permission to be a man, but what you don’t realize is so much of your teaching teaches the exact opposite.  I can’t even tell you how much you say stuff, and when you put your teaching in a synopsis you say “I don’t believe that”…but yet you continue to teach it.  You are a mystery and so are your beliefs because you won’t just go out and say what you believe.  The time you did it you wiggled out of every one of them by saying the opposite.   Half the time I want to hug you and pray for you, the other half of the time I want to slug you and wake you up to the damage you are doing by teaching this stuff to ALL men.  If you were to pick a certain subset of men you are the perfect teacher but what you don’t realize is about 80% of men don’t live with the women and church that you think exsists and  what you teach is suicide to their marriage and to the church for them.  Sorry, I’m a blunt man and don’t know how to pull punches with words…not trying to offend.  Just call it like i see it.

  9. Or in other words, the passive nature comes from little evidence that taking the lead makes things better. An example of a relatively unimportant decision, where to go for dinner. She says “you pick” and then responds to each choice negatively. You begin to wonder what is the point of even having a preference when, apparently, it’s not really wanted. You get that push and pull, “why don’t you ever take me out” vs “I don’t feel like going here.” You ask what she wants and she may.say, you pick. However, empirical evidence doesn’t support the premise that she wants you to actually pick.

  10. TonyB Als. We get stuck in these little vortexes that are trivial but enough of them can amount to the insurmountable.

  11. High Country TheGenerousHusbandHere’s a great book worth reading by a former Navy Seawolves pilot, Barney Barnes. Born To Be A Warrior. Excellent read. Challenged me on a few fronts.

  12. UBAwesome TonyB
    My point is if you are not “allowed” to take the lead on something so trivial, what evidence is there that you will be followed on something more important.
    For example, my bride suggested we get in better shape.  So I research diet, I now work out 3-6 times/week.   Dropped about 50 pounds, feel better, sleep better.
    Will DW follow along?  Of course not.  Can’t club her over the head and drag her to the gym.  Leading by example doesn’t ensure folks will follow.  It’s not like my days in the military when I would say we are going here and my team would gear up and follow.
    If someone wants to be lead, they will follow the leader.  If they are not following, then they don’t want to be lead.

  13. High Country TheGenerousHusband UBAwesome  Yes, I do hold women responsible for what they do. Your refusing to see that does not change it, but it does make it impossible for the two of us to discuss the issue.

  14. TheGenerousHusband High Country UBAwesome  
    Paul, no you don’t hole them responsible.  We’ve had this discussion before a few times.  Because of your beliefs about men and women, their roles, the damage they do, etc  we can’t discuss it.  Don’t worry you have the majority of the guys are church agreeing with you (and 80% of the women), at least for now.  I have about 30% of them agreeing with me and a huge amount that would love to be in church but can’t even stomach what the American church has become and do home church .  Obviously, the scripture is what is true but we disagree there and intrepret that much different also.  Obviously, most of the third world agrees with me and most of the western world agrees with you.  We have opposing views of gender roles, scripture intrepretation and how men and women are living out their lives and how the church is complicet in this.

    I don’t get frustrated with you for you or me.  We both have good marriages.  I get frustrated for all the men out there who I believe are being led astray and the women and children who are being hurt in that also.  

    But alas, it does matter.  Otherwise it would be like saying what we do does not effect Christ.  Nothing could be further from the Truth.  What we do/did effects what He does/did.  You can’t be one, without the the other half effecting it.  You can’t be an effective head if the body is in rebellion.

  15. TonyB UBAwesome I lead because I choose to lead. If my wife, or anyone else choose not to follow that does not prevent me from leading. You are correct that it does not do much good if the other person does not follow, but we need to continue to do what is right.

  16. TheGenerousHusband TonyB UBAwesome  

    You are not leading if someone is not following.  By definition, it’s not leading!

    Second, what you are doing with a wife that is not passive and not following, is creating a war zone, constant battle zone.  Which is why holding women accountable is so important.

  17. TheGenerousHusband High Country UBAwesome  
    You’re full of crap!  Point blank!  You’ve told me a dozen times men do more damage to marriages then women.  Then last week you say it ain’t so.

    Sorry, you tell me what I’ve misquoted you on and I’ll go back and find multiple quotes from your own sight to prove you wrong.  If I have to put in ten hours to prove to you that you speak out of both sides of your mouth I will do just that.  Last week I offered this and you weren’t man enough to list how I was misquoting  you.  Tell me exactly how I am misquoting you and by next week I’ll get back to you with your own words proving you that you are dead wrong.

  18. TheGenerousHusband High Country UBAwesome  
    I want to be crystal clear with you.  I have four or five main beef’s with you:
    1) you believe men do more damage to their marriages then women
    2) you believe women care more about their marriages then men
    3)you believe women work harder than men 
    4) you believe in a mild/timid/ almost backseat headship that has to get permission to lead…this one is complex and I can’t one quote to slam you with but a general overall reach of your teaching this is clear to those reading I believe.  You are all about the servant leadership, with emphasis on servant to the extreme.
    5)You support other teachers that cut men off at the knees trying to lead their families.
    6) You say things like you’re a feminist and that you know our grandpa’s would scoff at the way you live out your marriage/headship.
    7) You chalk way to much biblical teaching up to cultural and pass off long taught teaching as “sarcasism’ in Paul’s teaching.

    Okay that turned into more than four or five, but they all boil down to either intrepretation of scripture (in which you take one that would of been considered WAY liberal except in the last 20-30 years) and how you view modern men & women.  I don’t hate you or even dislike you as a person.  Just don’t like what you are dishing out teaching wise.

  19. High Country TheGenerousHusband UBAwesome  Even if I thougth men were 90% of the problem (which I do not) that would not prove I do not hold women accountable for their sins.
    Do you think women are the cause of the majority of marriage problems? Is your goal to get me to agree with that?
    Who cares who is “more wrong” when is clear both men and women are at fault? Why waste time arguing who does the most harm? 
    I will continue to encourage both men and women to grow up. I will point to their sins and errors and do whatever I can to get them to confess, repent, and change.

  20. High Country TheGenerousHusband UBAwesome  
    1) Probably, but it is closer and closer these days. 
    2) On the whole, yes. There are certainly plenty of exceptions.
    3) I agreed I was wrong on that a long time ago. Drop it.
    4) No, I do not.
    5) I’m sure I support some who you think do that.
    6) I am no feminist. The fact that someone in the past would have scoffed at something does not make it wrong. Equality for all races would be an example.
    7) Yes I think understanding the culture of the writer and recipient is vital to understanding the passage. This is basic hermeneutics. On the second point I have no idea what you mean.

    There are places where my take on Scripture is more conservative or fundamental than in at least 100 years.

  21. TheGenerousHusband High Country UBAwesome  
    I’m glad to hear you are admitting your bias on #1 & #2. 

    Anyone reading you should be shocked at #2 though.  For example, women initiate 70% of divorces, but your response to this was, ” they care so much they can’t stand a bad relationship”.  Paul, that’s nuts.  I can’t think of one thing I care about that leaving it and hurting it and turning my back on it proves I care about it.

    #3, you still carry on about how much harder women have worked throughout time.  I’m glad to see you’ve come around that at least in modern times you aren’t dispensing that, but even then you didn’t agree.  You just agreed that when both spouses work it wasn’t true but you still held that stay at home mom’s worked harder…your memory is a little fuzzy on that.

    #4 yes you do.  Except for the last thirty years (would you agree that these are years that men are the most wussified in the history of the world?) your definition of headship is weaker than other, by a very fair margin, than any accepted definition of headship throughout history dating back to Christ.

    #5 If you support Focus on the Family, Family Life today, Sheila…you are right, you do and yes I believe they do exactly that.  I’m quickly realizing more and more it’s the guides/teachers leading us who are a huge part of the problem.

    #6  You told me last week you were a feminist.  Which is it?
    And neither does because it’s the latest thing make it correct.  The equality thing is a book, but let’s just say no two people on earth are equal.  The only equality in this whole universe is the blood of Jesus Christ.

    #7 Why do you think you, who has lived the very furthest away from Paul in time as anyone has every lived think you know better than 1900 years of scholars, translator’s, bible techers?  Why is it that in the last 30 years we have suddently discovered that Paul was just a wise ass and cracking a joke about a very serious thing and then goes on to repeat this teaching (joke)in several places/letters to different people? I’m sorry but you are flat out wrong on this and badly.  You are reading into it what you want to read into this scripture and not reading what it actually says.  I find it hilarious that you believe in a time when women were property Paul needs to remind them to cover their heads, not teach  or hold authority over men, be subject to their husbands and you chalk this up to sarcasism or cultural.  It’s the exact opposite of that.  This was a time when you didn’t have to say any of that to women, it just was.  He wasn’t writing a comedy book.  It was inspiried Word of God.  Even if Paul didn’t know it at the time- God knew it.  

    I’m not trying to get you to say women are the problem or they are worse.  Both sexes are screwed up.  I would like you to admit that the culture of our churches and teaching though is very skewed to pleasing the women.  And I’d like you realize that you can’t ask men to lead if you don’t think they don’t care about their marriage or about their fiath as much (another thing you have suggested is women care more about their faith).  You don’t see how that cuts the legs out from under men as they try to lead.  You also don’t seem to realize that most women who are evening willing to admit they want their man to lead (the majority want no part in it), even the majority of them only want to be lead where they want to go (they want to steer, and he does the heavy lifting).

    You are setting men (and women & children) up for disaster if
    a) you don’t have a proper understanding of scripture
    b) you don’t have a proper understanding of the climate you are asking folks to do stuff in

    You are asking us to fix our marriages but you only have a small portion of the information correct so the formula you give is disaster for many.  What I want is a better understanding of the information so that the formula, given in scripture, can be better applied

  22. I would say not.  In our previous discussions about who is involved in more affairs, men or women, your response gives a pass to women in affairs if they are not married.
    Both partners in an affair are sinning against God.  At least one is violating his/her vows.  The other at the least is violating God’s law of not having sex with anyone other than your spouse.
    But when I’ve suggested that both men and women are equally represented in affairs, assuming that same sex affairs are outliers, you’ve told me that it isn’t the case.
    Which basically means you are not holding the women in these affairs accountable for their actions.  You are saying their contribution, their sin doesn’t count when it comes to addressing the situation.

    So let me be clear, it doesn’t matter the gender, nor the marital status if the affair partner to make their participation sin.  It’s the fact that they are having a sexual relationship with someone who is not their spouse that makes it a sin.
    But when you insist on saying that women are involved in fewer affairs than men, you are saying we don’t need to hold these women accountable for their actions if they are not married.
    I disagree.  Their marital status doesn’t matter.  It’s sin, period.   Men and women are equally represented in affairs.  Men and women equally choose to disobey God by having sex with someone who is not their spouse.
    There is no gender based moral high ground, period.
    To suggest otherwise is to say that men are more sinful than women, and frankly scripture doesn’t support that.  We know that ALL have sinned and fall short.  We know that once you sin, you are guilty, period.  More sin events, or more heinous sin events don’t make you more or less a sinner.  Sinner is a binary flag, true or false.  Only one human has had false as the value for the sinner flag.

    High CountryUBAwesome

  23. I would say not.  In our previous discussions about who is involved in more affairs, men or women, your response gives a pass to women in affairs if they are not married.
    Both partners in an affair are sinning against God.  At least one is violating his/her vows.  The other at the least is violating God’s law of not having sex with anyone other than your spouse.
    But when I’ve suggested that both men and women are equally represented in affairs, assuming that same sex affairs are outliers, you’ve told me that it isn’t the case.
    Which basically means you are not holding the women in these affairs accountable for their actions.  You are saying their contribution, their sin doesn’t count when it comes to addressing the situation.

    So let me be clear, it doesn’t matter the gender, nor the marital status if the affair partner to make their participation sin.  It’s the fact that they are having a sexual relationship with someone who is not their spouse that makes it a sin.
    But when you insist on saying that women are involved in fewer affairs than men, you are saying we don’t need to hold these women accountable for their actions if they are not married.
    I disagree.  Their marital status doesn’t matter.  It’s sin, period.   Men and women are equally represented in affairs.  Men and women equally choose to disobey God by having sex with someone who is not their spouse.
    There is no gender based moral high ground, period.
    To suggest otherwise is to say that men are more sinful than women, and frankly scripture doesn’t support that.  We know that ALL have sinned and fall short.  We know that once you sin, you are guilty, period.  More sin events, or more heinous sin events don’t make you more or less a sinner.  Sinner is a binary flag, true or false.  Only one human has had false as the value for the sinner flag.

    High CountryUBAwesome

  24. I write from a wife’s perspective and wish to emphasize that what I have learned here as well as from other similar sources (some named by High Country) have led me to a deeper understanding of my husband’s needs. The conversation and insights have freed me to be less controlling, more respectful, more appreciative in my marriage. I value my husband’s masculinity and sexuality. And these changes brought about a healthier self image for me as well. Thank you for your dedication to this ministry. You are making a positive difference in many, many lives.

    Much of what I have learned supports the theory that, generally speaking, husbands seek their wives’ approval and long to be the most important part of their wives’ lives. I think passivity sets in when husbands feel they have tried everything they can think of to accomplish this, and meet with defeat. They believe there is no way to succeed, and they give up.

    I appreciate your suggestions for husbands, but feel this is an area where wives are called to leadership. By choosing to treat their husbands tenderness and respect, they free those husbands to love their wives as God intended. Women have immeasurable power in this regard.

    Thanks again for answering God’s call to this important ministry.

  25. High Country
    #2) actually my thought on why women divorce more is because
    men are guiltier of physical, emotional, and mental abuse, and commit more
    adultery.
    I do think women are more likely to fight for/complain about a less than great
    relationship while men are more likely to put up with it, which may be what you
    are recalling.
    #3) Even when I admit I am wrong you do not let go. This is one
    reason I always stop discussing things with you.
    #4) I have yet to talk to anyone who has studied history who
    thinks we can be that sure.
    #5) I’ve not listened to FoTF for decades. I was doing this
    long before Sheila, and my awareness of Family life is limited and out of date.
    Most of what I say conflicts with what I learned growing up – it comes from
    significant study of the Word of God and a good deal of prayer.
    #6) I said what? Care to point to that? I can link to where
    I said:
    “I have long said feminism was a wrong response
    to a very real problem.””I have long said that feminism is a wrong
    response to a real problem.””As for a feminist view, the feminists I have
    argued with would laugh in your face at the suggestion that I am a feminist!”
    I can also show you where I proved feminism was wrong about
    men being bad for kids and where I agreed with Sheila that “The Costa
    Concordia, which ran aground last week off the coast of Tuscany, was , in part,
    a feminist tragedy.”
    #7) By your logic those who thought keeping blacks of as
    slaves were right and we should not be so arrogant as to think they were wrong.
    Beyond that, I must assume you are a loyal Roman Catholic because the Protestant
    reformers could not possibly have truth that the RCC had missed for so many centuries.
    Still waiting for you to explain the joke/sarcasm comment, I have no idea what
    you mean.
    You act as if the churches in the US are of the same mind,
    which they are not. I see churches which practically require men to be castrated
    to attend and churches that do not allow women to speak and do not say a word
    when they KNOW a man is beating his wife. I happen to think both of those are
    wrong and both are extremes. I wonder about the circles you run in, because
    they are not the norm or majority for any of the places I have lived, visited,
    or have friends. Certainly, I have run across such churches, but they are not
    nearly as common in my experience as in yours. (Of course I have never lived as
    close to Seattle as you!)
    That is the real difference between you and me, and none of
    the rest is going to change unless that does. You think I am blind to an
    obvious truth, while I think you have created a false truth by extrapolating
    from a small non-representative sample. You think I am dangerous and need to be
    stopped – I respect your desire to stand up for the truth. I also understand
    how frustrating it must be not to have the power to stop me. I can only imagine
    the level of frustration this blog causes you. My suggestion would to be to
    give it over to God and walk away.

  26. TonyB
    Tony, really? I said MARRIED women are involved in fewer
    affairs than MARRIED men are. You keep muddling the water for reasons I do not
    understand.
    Among those who are married, more men than women cheat on
    their spouse. (But that is changing rapidly, and I expect it to even out in the
    next few years.)
    Just in case you have missed it, I think all sex outside of
    marriage is sin. Period, end of story.

  27. TheGenerousHusband High Country  
    Feb 13th comments…you who model yourself after Jesus and Paul, who were “rabid feminists”.

    Feb 13th comments…women not being allowed to have authority over/teach men (my intrepretation of scripture) you said it was Paul being sarcastic.

    Feb 13th comments…you are still going on about how women worked so much harder throughout history (and you’ve done it a few other times since)

    My sample size is not small.  I literally speak to hundreds of men a day (and women).   

    But your #2 is shockingly wrong.  I would have agreed with you a 100 years ago.  It’s not a hundred years ago.  You’d still be right in the hood, you’ve got it flipped upside down in rural and suburban America.  You’re clueless on this.

    I really don’t care if I stop you or not.  My hope is to wake you up.  If that is not possible it is to shout from the rooftops for the men listening to you to weight everything against the evidence and offer a varying viewpoint.

    You don’t get me.  I can respect someone who quits there job to do marriage ministry.  I almost gave you your damn RV yesterday but I just can’t get over how jaded you are towards men and who you constantly put women on a pedestal and that dynamic is dangerous, not biblical and not a healthy one for folks doing marriage ministry.  If you could change this one thing, put a proper balance, responsiblity and biblical intrepretation in place I’d be your biggest fan.  Until then I will occassionally rant because I believe you are cutting men’s knee’s out from under them.

    And please stop with the slavery thing.  The thing is all of our ancestors were slaves at one point, not just African Americans.  You have to go back 200-300 more years in Europe or Asia, depending on your nationality, to find your family was indeed slaves but unless you descend from the elites in Europe your ancestors were slaves.  Besides, don’t talk to me about slavery being biblical or not.  I guess it’s biblical when God gives His people over to be slaves but not biblical when He does not….because He DID give his people over as slaves a couple times.  This is why I say you argue like a woman. You take something I am not even discussing-slavery- and throw it in to make an emotional point.  It doesn’t even matter if it’s a valid biblical point, you are just trying to bend emotions to you.

  28. TheGenerousHusband High Country  
    Feb 13th comments…you who model yourself after Jesus and Paul, who were “rabid feminists”.

    Feb 13th comments…women not being allowed to have authority over/teach men (my intrepretation of scripture) you said it was Paul being sarcastic.

    Feb 13th comments…you are still going on about how women worked so much harder throughout history (and you’ve done it a few other times since)

    My sample size is not small.  I literally speak to hundreds of men a day (and women).   

    But your #2 is shockingly wrong.  I would have agreed with you a 100 years ago.  It’s not a hundred years ago.  You’d still be right in the hood, you’ve got it flipped upside down in rural and suburban America.  You’re clueless on this.

    I really don’t care if I stop you or not.  My hope is to wake you up.  If that is not possible it is to shout from the rooftops for the men listening to you to weight everything against the evidence and offer a varying viewpoint.

    You don’t get me.  I can respect someone who quits there job to do marriage ministry.  I almost gave you your damn RV yesterday but I just can’t get over how jaded you are towards men and who you constantly put women on a pedestal and that dynamic is dangerous, not biblical and not a healthy one for folks doing marriage ministry.  If you could change this one thing, put a proper balance, responsiblity and biblical intrepretation in place I’d be your biggest fan.  Until then I will occassionally rant because I believe you are cutting men’s knee’s out from under them.

    And please stop with the slavery thing.  The thing is all of our ancestors were slaves at one point, not just African Americans.  You have to go back 200-300 more years in Europe or Asia, depending on your nationality, to find your family was indeed slaves but unless you descend from the elites in Europe your ancestors were slaves.  Besides, don’t talk to me about slavery being biblical or not.  I guess it’s biblical when God gives His people over to be slaves but not biblical when He does not….because He DID give his people over as slaves a couple times.  This is why I say you argue like a woman. You take something I am not even discussing-slavery- and throw it in to make an emotional point.  It doesn’t even matter if it’s a valid biblical point, you are just trying to bend emotions to you.

  29. High Country TheGenerousHusband Some of the information in the Scriptures provides the cultural landscape of the time and is not to be taken as God’s will for our lives. Different parts of Scripture are to be read from different perspectives. We should not be so naïve as to take it all literally.

  30. High Country TheGenerousHusband Some of the information in the Scriptures provides the cultural landscape of the time and is not to be taken as God’s will for our lives. Different parts of Scripture are to be read from different perspectives. We should not be so naïve as to take it all literally.

  31. High Country TheGenerousHusband  I said “If you understand the culture of the time, they would have been seen as rabid feminists!” That is hardly me saying I am a feminist!
    You do not see sarcasm in Galatians 5:12? I put “St Paul sarcasm” in Google and got over a million hits. Apparently I am not the only one who thinks he used sarcasm. 
    I have no idea why you think I put women on a pedestal. Frankly I don’t know how you can read what I actually say and get that. I have given up on being able to change your mind since you clearly are not hearing what I mean.
    My point on slavery was it has been accepted by the chruch for most of history. According to you we cannot know better than those who were closer to the time of Christ. Ergo they were right about slavery and we are wrong. Same for Protestantism – based on what you said it must be wrong.

  32. High Country TheGenerousHusband  I said “If you understand the culture of the time, they would have been seen as rabid feminists!” That is hardly me saying I am a feminist!
    You do not see sarcasm in Galatians 5:12? I put “St Paul sarcasm” in Google and got over a million hits. Apparently I am not the only one who thinks he used sarcasm. 
    I have no idea why you think I put women on a pedestal. Frankly I don’t know how you can read what I actually say and get that. I have given up on being able to change your mind since you clearly are not hearing what I mean.
    My point on slavery was it has been accepted by the chruch for most of history. According to you we cannot know better than those who were closer to the time of Christ. Ergo they were right about slavery and we are wrong. Same for Protestantism – based on what you said it must be wrong.

  33. High Country  I would really like to understand what you think, but we
    spend most of our time arguing about your perception of what I think. I do not
    put women on a pedestal, but you think I do. I do not think women are less
    sinful than men are, but you say I do think that. I hold men and women
    accountable for their actions, sins and otherwise, but you do not see that.
    I would like to understand why your perception of what I believe
    is so different from what I actually believe but we never get to that.
    I’m going to stop arguing with you about what I really
    think. It is silly and insulting. If you are willing to assume you do not know
    my mind better than I do, perhaps we can have a real conversation.

  34. High Country  I would really like to understand what you think, but we
    spend most of our time arguing about your perception of what I think. I do not
    put women on a pedestal, but you think I do. I do not think women are less
    sinful than men are, but you say I do think that. I hold men and women
    accountable for their actions, sins and otherwise, but you do not see that.
    I would like to understand why your perception of what I believe
    is so different from what I actually believe but we never get to that.
    I’m going to stop arguing with you about what I really
    think. It is silly and insulting. If you are willing to assume you do not know
    my mind better than I do, perhaps we can have a real conversation.

  35. TheGenerousHusband High Country  
    Paul, 
    I have had this conversation with men via email from other sites and I am far, far from the only one who believes you believe these things.  Just because you don’t think you “believe” something, the content of your writing says something different.  Do you not tell us this all the time, how unintended or unknown actions & beliefs we hold influence how our wives perceive us.  Why do you think it is different with you?  

    Your own wife has stated to my wife and I that she has a hard time even ministering to women because there are so many bad husbands in the world…do you not see your bias?

    You say you don’t pedestal them…but you are famous for it in non CMBA slurping forums.  

    There is a time for slavery and time not for it.  That is my belief.  In all honesty, we are headed toward slavery in this country if we continue down the road we are on.  Sometimes slavery is just man’s sin.  Sometimes it is God’s judgement.

  36. IntimacySeeker High Country TheGenerousHusband  

    Not the passages we are discussing Intimacy Seeker.  God and His Word are very clear on the roles of men and women. And this is not a cultural thing…this is a human thing.  A God of order thing.

    Wives being submissive to husbands.
    Women not teaching/being authority over men 
    I will so far as to say head covering although this is not a hill I will choose to die on.
    Are all NOT cultural but Adam came first and then Eve  Eve created as helpmate and Eve being deceived kind of thing.  Scripture is clear on these things and they are not sarcasism.

  37. TheGenerousHusband  
    Ps. Going back and re-reading the Feb 13th which I only skimmed last night, you are right on the feminist thing.  My apolagies.  I remembered that wrong and was off on that.  My bad.  Forgive me on that one I would ask-

  38. High Country I know some seminary professors who could take you on but probably not open your closed mind and heart. Would that your faith could be more about loving others than being right, and more about asking questions than digging in your heels.

    God has put women in leadership roles throughout history and continues to call us into the ministry. Those who use isolated passages of Scripture to support their agendas and hide their fear make our faith undesirable to others.

    Male-dominated cultures have shaped our theology rather than the other way around. Just know that there are many churches and pastors with a richer, deeper, broader understanding of the Scriptures than you articulate here.

  39. IntimacySeeker High Country  
    So why is it when I say my theology is correct I’m not “loving others and am just interested in being right” & “digging in my heels with a less rich, less deep, less broader understanding of scriptures” but when you give me your theology you are not doing that?

    Why is those people whom I’ve spoke about before and you’ve said you’ve been influenced by would whole-heartedly disagree with you 100%.  Why is your grandparents and my grandpartents and 90% of all grandparents would have disagreed with you?

    I was saved, went to seminary, and pastored in the first church denomination to allow women to be ordained.  You don’t know my background.  I have sat at those theology professors feet and listened to what they have had to say.  So while you are at it, please ask those same theology professors what they think of creation and how humans got here.  Ask them about the Old Testament. Heck ask them questions like, does Jesus ever say we are saved by His blood.  Ask some of them about homosexuality.  Intimacy Seeker I have spent hundred of hours with these men (and women) you speak of and you go and ask these questions of them.  Get there whole theology before you stand behind them.  They have no problem not taking the Bible as written.
    Have you spent that time with them?  All those whom Paul references and you are speaking of…I was in their classes.  They were the ones laying their hands on me to ordain me.  You speak of these folks like you’ve had coffee with them and know them…you don’t, but I do.  They have left the truth of God’s Word behind.

    God has called women to be leaders-to children and other women.  I can’t think of a more important calling…but women, just as in the Garden are not satisfied with that and are living out exactly what God said…that they would desire to rule over their husbands and are blaspheming the Word of God by doing so.

  40. IntimacySeeker High Country  
    One last thing Intimacy Seeker..I’m not here to brag but give me a metric that is measurable in how I am not loving people and I’d be glad to put my “works” up against yours…

    People won to Christ?
    Money given to His church and cause?
    Hugs given?
    Hours volunteering with children, women or homeless?
    Bandages changed?
    How about knife fights broken up at homeless shelters?
    How about maritial “crap” and abuse you’ve lived thru and still loved?

    You name it and if I have to prove that love and Truth are not mutually exclusive behaviors I’m glad to do it.  You made the accusation so I’ll let you pick the metric OR if you’d be more interested you can apolagize because you don’t know me or what love I’ve shown to people.  What you see is one man having a conversation in public with someone who teaches marriage and Bible and me calling him on things that are not the Truth.  In a man’s world, that’s important and even necessary.  That has only gone out of fashion since  we’ve become feminized.  It has nothing to do whether I love Paul or not, in fact I could make a better case for my loving him than you by just giving him a pat on the back….

  41. High Country IntimacySeeker I do not know any women who desire to RULE over anyone. They only seek to answer God’s calling and use the gifts God has given them to spread the Gospel. Those callings include spouse, parent, and other roles.

  42. High Country IntimacySeeker I will rephrase: Your part of this conversation reminds me of times when I have been more interested in being right than in loving others and being open to God’s ongoing work of creating, renewing and restoring. I apologize for hurting you.

  43. IntimacySeeker High Country  
    If you don’t know any females who desire to rule over anyone, you’ve met very few females and even fewer female pastors.  Honestly, that message alone makes me wonder how honest you are being…it’s shockingly naive.

  44. IntimacySeeker High Country  
    You did not hurt me…I’m a little tougher than that.  Am I interested in being right?  Yes, but not for rightness sake.  I’ve already apolagized once today for when I was wrong.  I’m interested in being right because unlike Paul believes there are millions of men across the country that will say it just like I have said it.  It’s not a small sample size.  That is the reason why christian manosphere sites exsist because Paul and his ilk won’t recognize legitimate things going on within the church and it’s teaching (and all the christian teaching, blogs, books, ministries, etc).

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